Forum:Structures
Structure Lists Hazza-the-Fox: Ok, lets start doing a list of the types and functions of structures we haven't covered yet; "Command Towers (Radar/Drone Tower hybrid)" Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 14:11, April 18, 2013 (UTC) I had this awesome idea to compress the structures (and give a bit of a more logical theme for the tech tree)! Basically, I was thinking about the tech tree and decided that players might not make much sense in a radar facility unlocking tech, but more importantly, many might want to start a base expansion at this stage. So I decided to take the "Radar" structure as well as the "Drone Tower" and compress them into the same structure! Basicall, the "Command Tower". Its functions are as follows: *Provides Radar coverage *Unlocks tech Tier 2 *Unlocks the Airbase structure (note, Allies will now have an all-purpose airbase like the Soviets- though I think I have found a solution to the incompatibility between small and large aircraft (see 'Airbases' below) *Has a construction radius, and is able to create construction vehicles from an independent build cue (note that this only works when the player has a ConYard running). The only thing it can build without the ConYard is... another Conyard! *Has a Repair/Rearm radius (the repair drones) *Grants an intel-gathering power (spy plane or Psi Reveal) *Grants an additional defensive buff to nearby friendly units/structures- encouraging players to put it on the frontline Its appearance is basically similar to the old 'radar' towers mixed with the classic CNC Construction yard. Basically, *the top-left corner is the tower *the top-right is the 'garage', *the bottom-left is the construction crane *The bottom-right is a driveway/conveyer "Airbases" Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 14:11, April 18, 2013 (UTC) Another idea I had is about the airbases. You mentioned that all aircraft units would use the same allocated 'spaces'. But is it possible for the game to augment the structure depending on what you build? I had an idea that bigger aircraft simply take up double space, and big/small aircraft change the 'mode' of the Airbase: #Having no aircraft stationed leaves a 'neutral airbase' #Building fighters switches it to 'Fighter Airbase' (with four runway slots). This airbase will be BLOCKED from building larger aircraft. #Building a larger aircraft switches the airbase to 'Heavy airbase' (with TWO runway slots). This airbase will be BLOCKED from building fighters. This could possibly be applied to the Soviets as well (except they only have 3 fighter slots- or ONE heavy craft slot. After playing RA3 a bit, I've realized that the way they do gunships is perfectly fine; basically, they are made in the 'side hangar' for both sides, and do not need to be manually rearmed, nor provided with a designated fighter bay- This is strictly for fighters and bombers (who automatically return and land after every bombing run). This also means that the fighter units' special abilities can both be toggling striker/interceptor modes- where the aircraft will return to the airbase, take a moment to rearm, and assume its new duty (either patrolling the skies as an AA interceptor- OR, sitting in the runway, basically acting like a RA2 Harrier). Larger aircraft would do something else.... "Strategy Centers" Hazza-the-Fox 11:55, February 9, 2012 (UTC) These are the replacements of the Tier 3 "Battle Lab" structures in Red Alert 2 (or the likes of the Strategy Center/Propaganda Center/Palace in Generals. Unlocks Tier 3 and all Tier 3 units and structures (including the lesser superweapons), and provides some of the more advanced upgrades (mainly for Tier 1-2 units). The Allied version would be something like the "Defense Bureau/Strategy Center"- which would be an armored concrete political-looking building, befitting of national generals and leaders to form strategies within. The Soviet version would be something like the "Battle Command/War Command"- simply put, is a palace or cathedral converted into a command station. These structures possess no special abilities of their own- but do contain useful upgrades. (although perhaps a few minor perks- like being able to garrison infantry with Crenelations for the Soviet version might be in order) VolteMetalic 14:44, February 9, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, I agree. Also we can keep the names "Defense Bureau" and "War COmmand", and desing-wise also agree. Hazza-the-Fox 12:35, February 10, 2012 (UTC) Excellent- I was thinking, perhaps "Battle Command" (gives a slight link to the Battle Lab of old- and shares less prefix with the War Factory). VolteMetalic 16:21, February 10, 2012 (UTC): Not sure about that, thought that makes sense. Battle Command sounds little vague. :) Hazza-the-Fox 14:41, February 11, 2012 (UTC) It does? Fair nuff. That aside, anything we want to be attaching to these structures? Crenelation-Garrison spots for Battle/War-Command (GLA Palace-style) or anything of the sort? Or perhaps keep it simpler and see how it goes? VolteMetalic 10:21, February 12, 2012 (UTC): Maybe give it a light gun, since it is a center of command in the area :) Hazza-the-Fox 11:58, February 12, 2012 (UTC) Perhaps- though an interesting thing to consider with a garrison is that the structure's ability to defend itself relies on purchasing additional infantry units and diverting them to its protection- so it may prove a nice drawback that the high-profile structure still needs a large amount of outside investment to remain safe. (although on the other hand- the CNC-Generals USA Strategy Center did come with its own stand-alone howitzer (toggled the mode at the expense of something else). Extending from that- the Soviets could also get one option- the Allies the other option.... And of course, the Soviet one could, on top of these functions, come with propaganda speakers.... A lot of things to consider ;) VolteMetalic 11:57, February 13, 2012 (UTC): Yeah lot of things, but I dont think they are necessary. Even it is a center of command, it dont means that it can wage war by itself. Thats the role of defenses :) Placing a howitzer of sorts on the... how you described it, a former church turned into center of command? :D There is no place to place any howitzer. A simple small-caliber gun can be enough. Hazza-the-Fox 23:37, February 13, 2012 (UTC) Perhaps- although I was thinking simply people would be shooting out of the windows alternatively ;) VolteMetalic 10:24, February 14, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, but still it would look little weird :P Hazza-the-Fox 13:43, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Not really, its a base imbedded in a giant fort :P VolteMetalic 09:33, February 15, 2012 (UTC): Well, if you want to make it also a garrison-like structure, ok :) Hazza-the-Fox 11:18, February 15, 2012 (UTC) I think it could work out coolest- and art-wise if we change out minds about it having any self-defense capabilities, nobody will know as it will still be an old fort/castle/church converted into a base ;) VolteMetalic 20:47, February 16, 2012 (UTC): Aha, ok, go for it :) But keep a portion of RA2 Battle Lab in the design, only more rougher I think :) Hazza-the-Fox 09:17, February 17, 2012 (UTC) You need not even asked! The RA2 Battle Lab was what I had always intended to base the War Command's layout from ;) Only difference is a few 'renovations' poking out here and there, some reinforced barricades/protection in a few places as well! VolteMetalic 15:53, February 17, 2012 (UTC): Okay! :D Advanced Labs Hazza-the-Fox 11:55, February 9, 2012 (UTC) THESE structures are the special top-level structures that unlock Tier 4. They are effectively a 'passive' superweapon- providing huge boosts to the base, and often replacing the stand-alone Tier 3 structures as seen in Red Alert 2; along with; #Access to the primary superweapons (Orbital Prism Array and Nuclear Missile Silo) #Top-level upgrades (mainly for Tier 3 units) #Augments several structure's functions for the better #Numerous other perks. Aside from upgrades, which are permanent once researched- all other perks only exist when the Advanced Lab is operational- if the advanced lab is destroyed, all perks are wiped and those affected revert back to normal until the Advanced Lab is rebuilt. Only one advanced lab may be built at a time. VolteMetalic 14:44, February 9, 2012 (UTC): Agree. Allied Quantum Physics Lab Hazza-the-Fox 11:55, February 9, 2012 (UTC)The Allied Counterpart: Provides the following bonuses (more to come) #Improves resource returns (when nearby one or more Supply Depot) #I would have allowed Trucks to "Chrono back to base (or this structure)" but if its not possible, then that's fine #Unlocks "Industrial Synergy???" (Vehicles cost -25%) #Chronoshift can now accomodate infantry #Allows Construction of the Orbital Prism Array (note- Orbital Prism Array does not need Quantum Lab to function once conscructed) #Allows the research of the following upgrades: Harmonics, Subspace Physics, Mircorefractors (Prism Upgrade) #Note- some Nations' Quantum Labs may bestow additional perks- such as energy-shielding, or a Gap Generator (ANZ being a good candidate for this) Thoughts? VolteMetalic 14:44, February 9, 2012 (UTC): For 2, I am really not sure of it. For the rest I agree, and also I like the name :D Hazza-the-Fox 12:37, February 10, 2012 (UTC) No probs- I figured 2 would be problematic; In that case, we'll stick with the remaining 6, and leave a space open for any vital improvisation that may prove necessary (or leave it alone if not). And thanks! VolteMetalic 16:21, February 10, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, agree. :) Soviet Nuclear Research Lab Hazza-the-Fox 11:55, February 9, 2012 (UTC) The Soviet counterpart; provides the following bonuses #Generates nuclear power (but in doing so, is a potential risk of leaking radiation if destroyed) #Provides all Tesla Reactors with Plutonium conductors- increasing the output by each to double its ordinary capacity (note- safety regulations require the Nuclear Lab to be operational to oversee isotopes- in event of Nuclear Lab becoming compromised, Plutonium conductors are removed from the grid and only conventional Tesla power is generated again (also- new effect- Tesla reactors create a greenish energy charge, rather than white). I figured this would be a good way to save space, and also keep the actual Tesla Reactors useful once nuclear technology is present. #Iron Curtain now shields friendly infantry #Allows construction of the Nuclear Missile Silo (note- Nuclear Missile Silos do not need the Nuclear Lab to function once built) #Allows the research of the following upgrades: Cerebral Stabilizers, T4 Tesla Generators #Unlocks Cloning. #Note- some nation's Nuclear Labs may bestow additional perks, such as propaganda speakers Thoughts? VolteMetalic 14:44, February 9, 2012 (UTC): Agree, and for the name I would go with Nuclear (or Fission/Fusion) Research Lab. Hazza-the-Fox: Agreed and those are good names too- it's a tough call. And on another note- following your advice, I think that the 'chimney' replacement could indeed be either a very tall pylon with communications equipment- or a very tall bio-reactor-type structure; Having said that, we'll conclude precisely what we're doing with Cloning Vats (converting Barrackses is looking like the best approach still) before the final decision. Of course, the central structure could be a completely abstract 'pyramidical' structure- who knows? VolteMetalic 16:21, February 10, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, who knows :) So the candidates for names are "Nuclear Research Lab", "Fusion Research Lab" or "Fission Research Lab"... The one which makes most sense is Nuclear, but that would collide with Super Reactor... so maybe Fission? Hazza-the-Fox 02:05, February 11, 2012 (UTC) Well I was thinking that between the Labs themselves generating a super-reactor's energy output, and converting all the Tesla Reactors into mini-super-reactors would be a better way to save the space from needing a super reactor stand-alone (same way converting a barracs into a Cloning Barracks helps save the space from a stand-alone Cloning Vats structure). That way, when even the Nuclear Lab's power is being peaked by demand, the player can build a Tesla Reactor- and instead get the charge of half a super-reactor with each one built. And considering the Nuclear Lab unleashes a radioactive disaster when destroyed (or possibly partly-so when sabotaged by a spy) it serves as a good balance to these huge boosts. VolteMetalic 10:40, February 11, 2012 (UTC): Aha, I see. Thought maybe doubling Tesla Reactor's capacity can be too much when I think about it. Hazza-the-Fox 14:39, February 11, 2012 (UTC) No probs- it can easily be much lower (as each reactor so far built will be adding its individual increase to the overall power supply). It just needs to be enough to become a convenience when the player's base starts consuming beyond even the boost of the Nuclear Lab's own power supply, and a new reactor needs to be built (remembering the problem you mentioned a while ago about needing excess reactors with a more generous allowance late-game). VolteMetalic 10:24, February 12, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, but somehow it will make nuclear energy... it will take it on side ways, if you understand it :D That it will be used only as secondary source of energy. Hazza-the-Fox 12:04, February 12, 2012 (UTC) I hear ya- it becomes more a 'supplimentary' boost to other technologies than individually substantial entity- still, it makes good gameplay (and nice aesthetics to the Tesla Reactors with acid-green glow). I was also thinking another alternative is pure Nuclear Reactors boosting the likes of the Desolator (as Tesla Reactors boost Tesla units). VolteMetalic 11:58, February 13, 2012 (UTC): How can they support Devastators? Hazza-the-Fox 23:36, February 13, 2012 (UTC) Aw hell I was worrying that these two names could start clashing ><. I meant DeSOLators probably getting a damage boost against armor or wider radioactive fallout fields- but now that you mention it DeVESTators could probably stand as viable candidates for a boost too! (naturally this would mean the reactor aught be National) VolteMetalic 10:26, February 14, 2012 (UTC): I will ask again, how will it support them both? :) When Tesla Tank and Trooper are logical to be powered up by Tesla Reactor, because electricity can be charget to them, but you can tdo that with radiation. Hazza-the-Fox 13:42, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Good point- unless the rationale for Des is that he happens to get hooked into an underground cable network, it's not really going to work out logically (and that still wouldn't cover Devestator at all). VolteMetalic 09:40, February 15, 2012 (UTC): Exactly, so I think this could be scrapped :) Or put as some kind of upgrade for them? Hazza-the-Fox 11:21, February 15, 2012 (UTC) I reckon it can be scrapped, as it's only going to apply to a single national unit (unless we decide that Poland/Ukraine (Desolator's country)'s second unit is a mobile generator VEHICLE that the Desolators can hook up to. For the upgrades- similar deal if we want to decide that some nations get special unit upgrades or not (keeping in mind that some national units already happen to benefit from general upgrades- like the Tesla Tank benefitting from T4 generators). VolteMetalic 21:03, February 16, 2012 (UTC): In theory, there can be a passive abiity to increase the efficiency of Radiation weapons and reactors/engines. Hazza-the-Fox 09:14, February 17, 2012 (UTC) True- perhaps a more powerful isotope that generates more energy (and as such- better conducts all energy-based devices and weapons that draw upon it), while also leaving more potent depleted munitions? VolteMetalic 15:55, February 17, 2012 (UTC): Pretty much yes. :) Hazza-the-Fox 00:24, February 18, 2012 (UTC) That could probably work- keep in mind that for a normal side, the only beneficiaries are your reactors and the Nuclear missile (and potentially the Devestator Tank, maybe). While further benefits would be felt by the nationals Desolator, Nuke Truck and skunk, possibly. That in itself isn't too severe, as "Harmonics" would ultimately only benefit the Sonic Tank in most situations, or Australia's M-Com and Britain's Hurricane. VolteMetalic 08:59, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Well, that would still work :) Hazza-the-Fox 22:29, February 20, 2012 (UTC) It probably would ;) Old Discussion Hazza-the-Fox 08:56, August 24, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Structures in this game are built by the nanocore mode (with the strict exemption of walls and defensive structures, which are built regular CNC style) The structure layout is similar between both sides, operating on roughly these lines. Conyard/Command Center (Tier 1a) builds barracks, supply depot, some basic defenses (possibly walls), and reactor Reactor (Tier 1b) allows construction of Naval yard, war factory and Radar, and possibly some other defensive structures. Radar (Tier 2)- allows airfields, resource generator structure, and advanced defensive structures like the Tesla Coil, Prism Tower, and if we decide to include it- the Grand Cannon. National units will be available at this point too. Battle Lab (Tier 3)- allows Chronosphere/Iron Curtain, Adv Battle Lab, intelligence structure (Psi Sensor or Spy Satellite), economy Saver structure (Cloning Vats or Allied Recall Station). All top tier units are made available at Tier 3. Adv Battle Lab (Tier 4)- allows primary superweapon and advanced upgrades and enhancory abilities; thus it should be treated like a third, abstract alternative to the superweapons. For one thing, it also is intended that it removes a weakness from the superweapons (Allied ChronoSphere can teleport infantry- albiet with a warp-in delay, once this structure is built) *the only possible consideration I would make right now is the possibility that superweapons and economy-savers are not capped (like in Generals). That is up in the air though. Hazza-the-Fox 09:55, August 24, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Not sure if I should add an additional structures tab or not- as both sides structures are pretty much the same save for the special ones- alternatively, there could be a lot to cover in the defense structure topic) VolteMetalic 18:52, August 24, 2011 (UTC): I will post both tables here. For now. Now to the things. I think that the progress in access to new buildings would be different. * Construction Yard -> Reactor, Barracks and Walls * Barracks -> Basic defense (Pillbox, Flak Cannon etc.) * Reactor -> Ore Refinery * Ore Refinery -> War Factory, Radar/Air Force Center and Naval Yard * War Factory -> Another defense * Radar -> Tech Lab, Air Field (Soviets), Defensive Superweapons * Air Force Center -> Tech Lab, Large Air Field * Tech/Battle Lab -> Design Bureau (Soviets), adv tech lab (Allies), Ore Purifier/Industrial Plant, Construction Yard, Advanced Defense (Prism Tower, Tesla Coil, Grand Cannon...) * Design Bureau/Allied adv tech lab -> Offensive Superweapons For the additional resource income I am against it, because it will even more allow the commando-spam. In RA3, the Ore Nodes even after depleting can give some income, but only a little. And Oil Derricks are also there, it will be enough. Sorry if you didnt mentioned it :P Upgrades will be unlocked be each technological structure, so Radar, Tech/Battle Lab and Design Bureau/adv. tech lab. For that Psi Sensor and "Spy Sattelite", they will be considered as defensive structures, and I agree on giving it to Tech/Battle Lab. Say if I forgot something. Hazza-the-Fox 07:09, August 25, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Pretty close to what I had in mind; Just curious as to your version of the tier 1a/b tab. There's nothing wrong with it at all, but wanted to compared ideas. I designed mine based on streamlining the basic structures a bit so players could quickly jump into their respective area (infantry, vehicles, aircraft and ships) more quickly (and build some simultaneous structures, defensese and soldiers down while putting the other structures up, so there's less waiting at the very start). It also means that 'teching up' is a little more out of the way of structures, and by ignoring things like the war factory to jump into air and high-tech stuff faster gives an edge. Of course, if this allows too-powerful units to be reached too quickly, it may be worth the reconsider. Your Conyard pre-reqs are good, and definitely require the ore refinery before the war factory, naval yard and radar. Yep- the intel structure can quickly compromise many tactical plans the enemy might have- so its best as a later-tier structure, and more in the 'if you REALLY want it' category. At the very least it gives any operative units more time to do thier damage- which is fair. For internal resource generators, I was aiming for having slightly 'harder-to-reach' natural resources in the map that players needed to try harder to keep control of (especially the supply checkpoints). What exactly is the Defense superweapons? You mean like the Prism Tower and Tesla Coil? (we might find we have a lot to talk about with defenses, so we might need a new thread). For the 'different' comparative structures, I was thinking. Allied Airforce HQ- supplies radar, 4 fighter bays, and possibly a UAV (acting like RA2 Soviet Spyplane). Allied Airstrip/Hangar: Consists of a large runway for its bomber craft (they'd look strange is tiny craft on the fighter runway), housing about 1 or 2 large craft each. Also comes with a Helipad (which creates the choppers). Soviet Radar- just provides radar, spy scan (temporary reveal target area)- and possibly assists nearby defenses in attacking targets further away (so players might be tempted to put it on the front line) Soviet Hangar: Comes with 3 fighter bays for the Migs, and a large docking platform where the airships and choppers are created (and repaired). Basically, the Allies have the advantage of easier and earlier access to fighters, but the Soviets have the advantage that all their other air units don't need reserved space and additional airstrips- so making a fleet of Kirovs needs only one Hangar, while making 4 Nightwings needs two Allied Hangars (this might sound very unbalanced- but as RA2 had the Soviets without fighters and the Allies without heavy aircraft alltogether, it would actually make less an impact than it seems). I'll cover unit tiers in the next post- as this one is going to be very long. Soviet Cloning Vats (helps make those cheap hording infantry much more a problem- and high-end infantry a massive threat. Also, the Soviets of course get the nuclear reactor. I thought of the Yuri's Revenge industrial plant and decided maybe not- as Soviet tanks are already generally stronger and restrained only by their price from being too attractive an alternative to infantry. Allied Recall Station; Allows supply vehicles to teleport instantly back to their supply depots (with higher returns), and also will periodically teleport in some light reinforcements (a couple of vehicles- kinda like in Emperor- Battle for Dune- which I assure you, is actually more CNC than even Generals is). Psi Sensor- exactly the same as the RA2 one. Any units try to move to or attack anything within the Sensor's radius gets its vector revealed to the defender. SpySat Uplink- instead of revealing the entire map, it has an invisible 'eye in the sky'- its basically the line of sight of an orbiting satelite, and you tell it where to 'look' at (it is essentially an invincble air unit that you control- it simply moves very slowly. It also has a moderate detector range too). That way, players will still need scouts a little bit, but they get massive coverage. Adv Labs- basically, both structures take the more balanced, nerfed units and superweapons, and turn them into slightly unfair ones- they each cost as much as a superweapon themselves- and thus are the 'third superweapon'- enemy players will hate these almost as much as they hate enemy nukes simply by passively stacking nastier odds in the enemy's favor. It also means that players will be more distracted by the combos with their light superweapons, and will be postponed from building nukes for a while. Allied Strategy HQ/Defense Bureau- provides lots of top-end upgrades, possibly a defense shield (like in YR), and also enhances several structures and units by simply being on the map. It also ideally replaces the standard ChronoShift with a super-Chrono-Shift (larger, and can also send infanty through it too). Larger, and able to transport infantry Soviet Control Center/Propaganda Center (Palace?), War Command etc; Similar deal- possibly also comes with a shield of some sort- but will also replace the standard Iron Curtain function with a super-Iron Curtain function- able to safely shield friendly infantry without killing them (although their personal shield might be less effective at protecting them), and harms enemy vehicles that come into range (possibly freezing them). Anyway- for those somewhat controversial economy structures, I was thinking- Allies get a 'Jump Station'- a teleport pad that warps in supplies every few minutes (they could also double as repair pads)- and the Soviets get the "Industrial Engine"- it churns out tiny amounts of cash every second- sending in tanks refunds the entire cost and destroys the tank- but sending in infantry puts them to work shovellnig coal into the engine- increasing the income rate (and thus making use of mind control, kinda like how Yuri did it). We should also consider whether the sides should get gates, and what their basic defenses should be (eg tank bunkers (probably Allied- they'd really need it), general-infantry-only bunkers, all-infantry bunkers, IFV-type towers, turrets that don't need soldiers inside (or allow soldiers inside to enhance their firepower), flame turrets (for enemies trying to rush past your defenses)- whether Grand Cannon should be in- whether Soviets should have a psi-based equivalent to the Grand Cannon. Another consideration is if some defenses (eg bunkers) should come with light naval guns to protect against ships (but can't shoot at land targets- logical as large guns are very hard to aim- which makes the Grand Cannon so much more special in that it can target land units at all). VolteMetalic 08:58, August 25, 2011 (UTC): This will be for long :P I am nto sure what you wanted to say by first paragraph. I mean it seriously, this would make it more easier spam high-tier units like Devastator or operatives. Ahh, sorry, my bad :D I eman Supportive Superweapon, not Defensive. i mean Chronosphere and Iron Curtain. Air Bases & Radar: Yes, I absolutely agree with it :) I also have and idea for the layout of the Soviet airbase ^_^ Here arises the problems. Cloning Vats could be OP, especially when you want to use Crazy Ivans. You have money for three, and in the end you have 6. And I am not even sure if they can be made possible, since structures are now independent, not like in RA2 where was only one "active". But dont take it seriously, thats only my opinion and thoughts. Recall Station, it could also be a sort of OP, since you will for nothing gain units. Psi Sensor: I am nto sure if this exactly is possible, but I guess it is, must have to ask for that. SpySat Uplink: Hmm... I agree it would be there, but maybe that you must select where the satelite will show, it will, and for some time you can move with it. After that it will be "gone" and you will must manually again set where it will be. Along with standart large view radius aroudn itself like Psi Sensor. I agree on that all, the names would be Allied Defense Bureau and Soviet War Command. For the shield, if it will be more reasonable, like they are different for both factions, than I agree, but like they were in RA2, no, I never liked it. And for the Super-Iron Curtain, making it that friendly infantry can be in effect I dont agree. I searched how exactly Iron Curtain works (and believe it was REALLY hard), and the principle is that it storages immense amount of energy, which it than launches into the area, where it covers everything. Vehicles and Buildings, being a non-living things, can withstand the weight of the energy. However, infantry, as they are living beings, cant withstand it and are crushed by the energy. So, there is not possible to make it like this. infantry teleported by Chronosphere, thats more likely, but when you will decrease the amount opf energy or Iron Curtain, you will also weaken the energy on vehicles. Since the energy covers the whole area equally, there is no way to make different layers, it will affect everything, not only what you want. I suggest that, instead of effect on friendly infantry, it will have larger area of effect.That will have the same effect. For another structures, I have no problem with Super-Reactor, but than what will Allies has as its counterpart? And Industry Plant dont has to be just to reduce costs, but it could also mean something else. And defenses, we should speak about them in different topic :) Hazza-the-Fox 09:48, August 25, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox No probs I was just interested in your approach is all. It used a slightly more indirect route to get to certain units (like the MCV/Conyard being a high-tier unit), and was wondering if there was anything I wasn't thinking. Awesome- I reckon this airbase dichotomy will be brilliant! And I'm interested to hear your idea for the Soviet airbase (I actually thought of one of my own- simply three parallel runways with a fighter-hut at the back of each- and next to the third fighter hut is a control tower, and next to the third runway is a large construction bay with an opening roof for the Kirovs) The Cloning Vats and Recall Station- good point. They are indeed meant to be unfair, though I wouldn't want them to turn too strongly into spam either. Wtih that in mind, it could be treated like a fourth unfair superweapon- with the free soviet infanty (and operatives) heading off the free Allied vehicles (including Sonic Tanks)- with the construction of either structure implying a missed opportunity to build the iron curtain. The Allies kinda merge some economy structures together- the Soviets build a nuclear reactor, and no longer need to worry about power- Allies can build the Recall station (sans vehicle reinforcements) and don't need to worry about resources or logistics, as supply trucks teleport back just like Chrono Miners, and adding the function of the Ore Purifier- gives a stronger return. As the Soviets don't get a War Miner, it gives the Allies a slight greater advantage than building a plain old Ore Purifier with existing Chrono Miners than in RA2. ChronoSphere and Iron Curtain- good to know. VolteMetalic 10:39, August 25, 2011 (UTC):Thanks :) I used RA3 as reference, and my sense for how logical it can be. <_> I had precisely the same! Only that the large hangar for kirovs and helicopters is directly connected to fighter's hangars, and the tower is beside the large hangar and at the end of the runways, or on top of the fighter's hangars. Yeah. When compared, Soviets will be in disadvantage... it needs somethign else for Allies. For Soviets, they can have both Super-Reactor and Industrial Plant. Reactor is simple, but Industiral Plant will dont make cheaper the vehicles, but decrease a build time. That could work, hmm? :) Allies would have the Ore Purifier, but what else? Hazza-the-Fox 01:34, August 26, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Cool! Could work; I was thinking that the Ore Purifier was also a Chrono-miner return station; but there are plenty of combinations we can do for resource/economy structures. VolteMetalic 03:53, August 26, 2011 (UTC): One way or another, the limit for these structures for Allies are 2. More cant be achieved because there will be no space for it in the menu. Hazza-the-Fox 04:23, August 28, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox That's fine- that's why I'm thinking of merging a few structure types together, so the player is faced with a single structure that solves many problems, rather than invest separately for a new capability each. VolteMetalic 08:05, August 28, 2011 (UTC): Ok :) I dont have any ideas what to merge with what for now :) Hazza-the-Fox 11:26, August 30, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox No problems- to be honest I have no idea what we should do with them yet either. :/ VolteMetalic 11:44, August 30, 2011 (UTC): Same here... so lets talk about the possibilities, and we would have it :) So, Soviets would have Super Reactor, on that we can decide... what would Allies have to compensate for Soviet over-electricity capacity? {C}Hazza-the-Fox 15:12, August 30, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Well that's the thing- I figured if Soviets get a super-reactor to stop worrying about power- the Allied answer is a special resource structure that teleports the supply trucks back to base after they pick up their cargo- removing over half of their resource woes (both waiting times and protecting convoys when returning*)- throw in the Ore Purifier's ability to increase the returns you recieve- and you have a pretty sweet alternative to the Soviet Nuclear Power Plant. While Soviets are lazy with power, but worry about their shipments, Allies can be lazy with their shipments, but worry about their power supply? -On that note- perhaps we could look into an ability to loot fallen resource collecters (every time you destroy an enemy supply truck filled with supplies, the supplies are actually dropped as capturable cash or rewards)? It would encourage players to actually let supply trucks pass- but wait for them to return- so players don't just lazilly sit their tanks directly between the enemy's base and the warehouses and leave them to shoot at whatever heads their way- but will actually plan ambushes in the hope of getting some goodies)? Possibly something like Red Alert 2's random boxes that did various rewarding things when you sent a unit to grab them? VolteMetalic 15:36, August 30, 2011 (UTC): When combined with chrono-porting back to refienry, the idea with looting is pretty one-sided. When Allies will ambush Soviet convoy, it will be easy money. But when Soviets will want to ambush Allied, they will wait forever, because Supply Truck will be already in refinery and will go back to collect. And, you will build one Purifier, and there it ends, but Soviets must build a new Super-Reactor when they are low on energy. No, it needs to be tweaked... What about that Purifier must be build close to Refinery to give it increased income with each payload? Not sure if it would be coded, hmm... Yes, I think it can be. Hazza-the-Fox 05:30, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox In that case, scrap the chronoports, but I think keeping the plunderable supply crates on fallen transport units is a good idea. I reckon that would be a good idea- if you could build infinite Purifiers, but each needed to be attached to the specific structure to achieve their boost- that would be excellent! (it could pose a potential solution for the cloning problem too- though whether THAT should be infinite is another story). VolteMetalic 11:56, August 31, 2011 (UTC): It is, but question is if it is possible. Maybe it is. Purifier is normal structure, which you must build near the Refinery, not on it. And it will work always when Supply Truck takes the money here, you will gain more money than usual. Hazza-the-Fox 02:44, September 1, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Should work fine (if technically possible)- I think any further functions, or arrangements of which-structure-does-what will progress naturally when we bring the complete list of structures, and find what they do well, or not-well-enough. VolteMetalic 08:05, September 1, 2011 (UTC): Yeah, that would be needed. Will we list it here or on respective faction Arsenal topics? Hazza-the-Fox 12:12, September 1, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Good question- probably here, as it may make it easier to weigh both side's arsenals against each other in the same discussion. VolteMetalic 12:55, September 1, 2011 (UTC): Agree. So lets get started :D Construction Yard Hazza-the-Fox 14:20, September 1, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Well, putting aside the stats, both sides' construction yards are basically the same, and follow a similar physical layout; They are a mixture of command center, communcations center, and a large factory. The appearance consists of a long structure with a large exit for the 'construction vehicles' to leave, and on the other side are the crane and machines more typical of old Conyards (where the pop-up base defenses are made and transported). (I got a minor sketch- I'll put up on DA soon-ish) Most structures are made through the 'front door', with a few armory structures made on the side (the cranes etc will be constantly moving when constructing either or both). The Conyards are big, incredibly tough, and quite expensive. They are one of the few structures that generate substantial amounts of build-radius for defenses, and are required if any building is to be done at all. The Conyards are the deployed form of the Mobile Construction Vehicle- which can only be made from either the factory, or an existing Conyard (no difference of cost- just depends on which build-que you'd rather hold up for a long period of time). I don't think there should be *too* many structures required as prerequisites for MCV construcition- simply a Supply Depot is required. This isn't too much of a problem- if a player wants to build a second MCV that early in the game- they would be taking a huge gamble on the price and falling behind in the arms race. It does prevent the scenario that the game is virtually over for the player loses a Conyard early on. I think as a balance, if technically possible, that enemy engineers cannot insta-capture an enemy Conyard (the game could end very quickly that way)- but stand in front of the Conyard and start a slow-capture sequence (Generals style). Also, we should consider how 'selling' structures works (if we decide to allow it at all)- and how to stop it being *too* easy to simply capture (or mind control) an enemy structure and continuously sell it). VolteMetalic 14:31, September 1, 2011 (UTC): For the design, I agree with the long hall, but beside it would be large strucutre, with a tower of some sorts, along with radar dishes and antennas and all that. One thing, what do you mean by "MCV"? You mean that Building Truck which deploys into ConYard, or an actual MCV, large vehicle which deploys into ConYard, and can redeploy back to MCV? For not-easy capturing, I agree, but I am not sure about how it could be made in the engine, if it is possible. Hazza-the-Fox 00:44, September 2, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox YES! That is exactly what I had in mind; It sort-of looks like a war-factory (only taller, with a control center at the top), the path leading out of the exit is flanked by long, tall, thin structures, forming a kind of 'canal'. The canal is topped by a 'ribcage' of scaffolding (instantly making it distinguishable from other buildings). So this building would appear long. But on the right side of the building (our left), are more components- the construction crane, and any satelites and control rooms we couldn't fit on the top of the structure (or the mini-structures forming the canal, for that matter). Allies would have maybe some more 'hitech' or 'army style' stuff topping their Conyard, Soviets would get a few spires and domes (an attempt at disguising or camouflage- for both cases). Hmm, good point- I originally had "construction vehicle" referring to the Nanocore replacements, and MCV referring specifically to the Conyard-deploying vehicle; but we may want to rename them (then again, Conyards could be built by the exact same kind of vehicle that builds anything else). Cool- if we can't do slow capture, then perhaps the best alternative is to outright deny capture for Conyards till an upgrade allowing otherwise has been acquired? VolteMetalic 09:39, September 2, 2011 (UTC): I have thought more like in RA2 , similar layout. Yes, I vote for having one and the same truck for construction all strucutres. :) I agree. This would nullify this tactic for the start. I would make it as component of that upgrade for engineers enabling them to repair friendly vehicles. Hazza-the-Fox 13:56, September 2, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Regarding adding alternate light and medium tanks for sides as gameplay units, I'm actually leaning against multiple tank types per side where it can be helped- at least to begin with. Additional types of artillery I'd be pretty eager for- though in both cases it would start to factor in if either side is seriously lacking something; The problem with these is that players may well be inclined to favor one tank too much over the other and try to head off their heaviest tanks. Construction Vehicles; Cool- settled! Makes things much more straightforward. Engineer upgrade- Agreed (both for the repair upgrade and mixing it with some extra features). There are potentially a lot of functions I could think of engineers getting an upgrade for (depends what the engine can handle, and if they are good for gameplay). And combined upgrades are definitely the way to go- ensures a nice-all-round package that is very freeing for players (whilst justifying a very expensive price tag before the benefits are granted)- as a player who may have only wanted the field-repair ability, may find themselves using the numerous other bonuses that came as extras! VolteMetalic 19:29, September 2, 2011 (UTC): I meant the Construction Yard, not the old units. nod Hazza-the-Fox 02:40, September 3, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox OH! Gotcha! Yeah, I'm trying to work with something fairly similar to the RA2 Conyard (and with a touch of the RA3 conyards, and a touch of the Generals Command Center too). Generally the layour is similar- there is a large 'hangar' style structure on the back-right and a crane on the front-left, with the control structures behind the crane. The main diference is that because the (generalized) Construction Vehicle will now be exiting the 'hangar' structure's door; the entire 'crane moves boxes around' mechanism is now squeezed into a tighter corner on the side. Actually, you gave me a good idea for an alt model- I'll do a rough sketch of both shapes and you can let me know which one you like more (keeping in mind the old one kinda looks a bit like how my Shipyard is looking- so this new version may be just the thing to fix it). The only tricky part with the Conyards are that they are slightly similar-looking structures to the War Factory, with Red Alert 2 differentiating them by having the factories as elongated stand-alone hangar structrures, while the Conyard had a second structure to the side fo the 'hangar'. Generals did a bad job of this, as the factories and command centers both had these details, and were much harder to tell apart. It also depends if the factories and barracks are going to have repair-bays/healing wards (warranting an obvious visible cue on the model itself)- or if the infantry and vehicles must simply get their healing elsewhere (meaning the factories can both just be long 'hangars' and the Conyards' multi-part layout won't be confused with anything). VolteMetalic 08:02, September 3, 2011 (UTC): If you cant tell apart warr factory and command center in ZH, you have a serious problem :P But yes, lets see which layout will be best :D {C}Hazza-the-Fox 09:19, September 4, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Oh, not at a glance though. :P In Generals, the structures were almost the exact same- same texture, same layout, mostly the same shape, with only subtle differences that required a second glance. China for example had a Command Center that was a large hut with a traditional roof connected to a small hut with with a traditional roof, a garage door and driveway attached on one side and a satelite tower on the other- the Barracks made of the same identical huts with a traditional roofs in a similar layout, only they didn't have a garage and driveway, and the War Factory was also composed of a large hut with a traditional roof connected to a small hut with a traditional roof- only the larger one was the garage instead of the smaller one, and it had a second driveway that went in a perpendicular angle. Basically it uses the same details and general shape- only with some very minute differences, which the player had to identify or memorize (based on which relative side is the driveway, lack of driveway, lack of antena etc. The fact that different side's corresponding buildings had less similarity in layout to each other than they did among their fellow structures added to the confusion. Compared to Red Alert 2- the Conyard was a large square-base structure with a bulky concrete garage on one side and a large dynamic machine and crane on the other; the barracks was two low, discrete cylindrical concrete tubes with distinct (team) blue ribs going across the top, and the Factory was an elongated garage with a distinct metalic roof; and these are probably the least distinct structures they have- but all of which you could spot them instantly without even reading them, simply by being able to identify their completely distinct footprint or focal details alone. Also, in Red Alert 2, the corresponding structures between the Allies and Soviets were very close in their distinctive details; the only exceptions were the very dynamic structures that had strong distinctive details (the Soviet barracks had a massive noticable statue of an infantry unit, and the Soviet Battle Lab was a palace while the Allied one was a glass high-rise). I reckon I could take the distinctiveness even further too- consistent manner of team coloring on roofs being one major way to split them up- Conyards have plain roofs, Barracks have painted roofs and War Factories have metal roofs- and then there are other details like yellow scaffolds to get the eye's attention ;) VolteMetalic 19:04, September 4, 2011 (UTC): Here I must greatly dissagree with you. I dont know how you play it, but I never had a problem with recognizing what building was what. What you ahev described is called "faction style", and while you are right that the structures uses the same design factors, you forgot that there are factor keys like size, layout and these details you mentioned. For example China which you mentioned here. *Command Center has large cylinder structure with two-layers roof, the garage has triangle-shaped roof on left side, the smaller cylinder strucutre on right, and the radar tower between them. *Barracks has a small cylinder structure in one corner, large rectangular structure covering the whole other side, these two structures connected by "roof", with a road and "campfire" with rifles storaged. *War Factory is large rectangular structure with large gate, with a balcony on the roof, with small sstructure in the corner, connected by tracked transport, and the repair bay, with a crane. While as you stated, it were all the same things, the way how they were shaped, placed and the overall size and shape of the structure differentiate it from others. I can say the same about yout way of making a different color of all units :) But we already settled that. Hazza-the-Fox 23:46, September 4, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox As I said, anyone can tell the Generals structures apart- it's just that the lack instant recognition. VolteMetalic 00:31, September 5, 2011 (UTC): No one cares about instnat recognition. Human's eye is fast enough to catch a unit, and when he isnt sure what it was, player looks again and in less than secodns recognize the unit. You would have to need a Sharingan to "instantly" recongize stuff. This is a thing which I really dont understand, I never needed that thing. Hazza-the-Fox 14:13, September 6, 2011 (UTC)Hazza-the-Fox Actually you'd be surprised how distinctive shapes can immediately override the need to look for something. They eye looks for patterns when it quickly searches for something; so finding an airstrip is easy because it requires spotting a large dark slab of tarmac with thin yellow or white symbols marking it up; it is a large, instantly spottable detail that even a player zooming around rapidly without stopping could spot. It works just as well for other details, like yellow construction pylons, metal roofs vs concrete roofs, even vastly different layouts instantly grab attention, so long as they are unique to their own type. In contrast, a player would have to actually stop to scrutinize the details a bit more for supplimentary details withouth these stronger differences- and these are more heavily 'learned' than the above (stronger acquaintance with the details of each respective structure). Kinda the difference between instant recognition in some Escher drawings, vs the 'spot the difference' charts. VolteMetalic 15:01, September 6, 2011 (UTC): As I said, I dont had ever any problem like this, or never heard of someone dont liked it. Structure Designs VolteMetalic 13:59, November 30, 2011 (UTC): Well, here we can discuss the things about the designs of the structures. Hazza-the-Fox 15:20, November 30, 2011 (UTC) Yep- so first quick question for general stuff and international influence; I think we can get away with a few cyberpunk manga-style touches in the Allied structures, as well as a touch of dystopian WW2 architecture- to imply a broad international influence. Question is do we do something similar with the Soviets? (keeping in mind most of these countries actually built similar industrial structures as Russia- so only the Orthodox domes would stick out). Sorta like those Russian/Chinese alliance structures in the Generals mods? That aside, both would have a somewhat rag-tag look to them (implying that the designers threw them up in a hurry as a battlefield emergency structure)- only the top-level structures would afford a more elaborate look (mostly to give them a clear technological difference between tiers). Even then, many of the hitech components woudl have been rapidly installed (Cloning Barracks being one example). So allies would have a lot sandbags and tarp-shelters, as well as portable concrete barricades lining their structures; Soviets would have spikes, bits of spare metal sheets as barricades, and barbed wire. With a bit of mix-and-match (Soviets also using sandbags and tarps here and there- Allies using some scrap metal and barbed wire- only one side has more than the other), Fallout Fort VolteMetalic 13:59, November 30, 2011 (UTC): Design of this structure... To look like a fort, with some Asian-feel in it, with large RAD Gun on the roof, and fireports all over it, like bunkers on the corners. Maybe short wall in sections where bunkers arent, spikes around it... and maybe a cables running from the roof to the ground, where is the nuclear reactor, core of the weapon. Hazza-the-Fox 14:59, November 30, 2011 (UTC) Sounds good. I was thinking, perhaps to set it off further from the Grand Cannon, that instead of a single gigantic gun in the top tower it had several large-ish long-range cannon poking out around its battlements that fired in a barrage (that each leave radioactive residue of course). Gives it more of a 'fort' feeling that it is bristling with guns. Alternatively, it stocks radioactive munitions that it fires out of specialized guns? (one thing to keep in mind is that the GC's direct limitation is that its projectiles are slow and can actually miss the target, as its handicap for having such excellent range- and as it doesn't have the garrison capacity, nor radioactivity, we aught to consider a fair handicap that prevents the radioactive attack from being too effective- such as projectile speed of its own). On a design note, we could do some interesting stuff with the nuclear components (for example, we could have the fort's turrets (or ornamental spires) disguising the nuclear steam chimneys, or pagoda's concealing the nuclear core? (of course, that depends on how exactly we'd want to balance the modern Soviet-ishness with some older Asian-style- and for that the first thing we need is a rough idea of the layout of the fort)- so far, we'd have; #The main weapon (being long ranged, it'd be at the top- and most likely doubly-insulated with all the radioactivity going on inside) #Infantry garrison section (probably wrapping around the lower sides) #Fortified spikes and barricades #Generator components (probably implying a basement below, with, as you said, some cabling/piping cutting up to the top. We'd still need a general shape of the whole structure. We could also imply a lot of stuff- perhaps a fortified, renovated old fort (or disguised new structure). Plenty of things to work on.